tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1069722513702689337.post4145129946602885051..comments2014-12-10T15:09:22.355-05:00Comments on The Skeptitcher Rebbe: Five stages of Mourning OrthodoxySkeptitcher Rebbehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01799841763038025387noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1069722513702689337.post-58897623702504147122014-11-17T10:49:52.908-05:002014-11-17T10:49:52.908-05:00with me, it was first accepting homosexuality as o...with me, it was first accepting homosexuality as ok, realizing the toireh is bullshit, realizing hashem doesnt exist, coming out as non-straight, and realizing it was evil to call homosexuality a sin.<br /><br />anyhu great post!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1069722513702689337.post-21799868824887258322011-03-29T04:28:58.531-04:002011-03-29T04:28:58.531-04:00skeptitcher rebbe --
you're still Jewish as T...skeptitcher rebbe --<br /><br />you're still Jewish as Tevya!<br /><br />TuviaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1069722513702689337.post-16902479644260070482010-12-26T02:57:07.075-05:002010-12-26T02:57:07.075-05:00Interesting blog... Anon, I wish you could be comf...Interesting blog... Anon, I wish you could be comfortable with the idea of no go. it took me a while after I realized the tora was not divine to let go of god. it made me happy at first but it really isn't an easy thing to incorporate into one's life. Rebbe, I cannot agree more with your comments to JP. it is incredible how smug some believers are as they talk out of their ass. the guy must work for aish or some other evil enterprise of that sort. errrrr...Balboahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01004775110193786157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1069722513702689337.post-71361891379775747622010-11-04T14:55:14.084-04:002010-11-04T14:55:14.084-04:00I have no idea where I am on that scale, I suppose...I have no idea where I am on that scale, I suppose bouncing around denial and depression at the same time. Do you know of anyone who is considering going otd or who is otd who is willing to meet? I am still in the community but am struggling and would like to meet others with similar issues. I would like to make a meetup but am unsure how to proclaim a meetup and not fear getting outted before I'm ready!<br /><br />take care<br />sdebeau@yahoo.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1069722513702689337.post-81354180107943283562010-11-03T09:49:56.212-04:002010-11-03T09:49:56.212-04:00I draw a lot of water on this blog, JP. You don...I draw a lot of water on this blog, JP. You don't draw shit. We got a nice quiet blogging community here, and I aim to keep it nice and quiet. So let me make something plain. I don't like you sucking around bothering my readers, JP. I don't like your jerk-off name, I don't like your jerk-off face, I don't like your jerk- off behavior, and I don't like you, jerk-off --do I make myself clear?Skeptitcher Rebbehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01799841763038025387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1069722513702689337.post-74178376906599688572010-11-03T06:18:56.715-04:002010-11-03T06:18:56.715-04:00JP, if you insist on pointing out the logical fall...JP, if you insist on pointing out the logical fallacies of others, you should take care that your own arguments are not fallacious.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1069722513702689337.post-58301554837001641912010-11-03T06:16:20.181-04:002010-11-03T06:16:20.181-04:00http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignoran...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignoranceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1069722513702689337.post-3084312315761836672010-11-03T03:57:34.294-04:002010-11-03T03:57:34.294-04:00Skepticass, here I think you are venturing into ad...Skepticass, here I think you are venturing into ad homenim territory.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem<br /><br />The Rebbe's words of wisdom are still missing.jewish philosopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17987540457195983665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1069722513702689337.post-63323833535456676252010-11-02T22:11:15.922-04:002010-11-02T22:11:15.922-04:00JP you're out of your element. You have no fra...JP you're out of your element. You have no frame of reference. You're like a child who wanders in in the middle of a movie.Skeptitcher Rebbehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01799841763038025387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1069722513702689337.post-55310702050442918062010-11-02T19:19:11.243-04:002010-11-02T19:19:11.243-04:00Sketicass Rebbe, I wonder why the nonsense of darw...Sketicass Rebbe, I wonder why the nonsense of darwinism doesn't bother you. The fossils indicate catastraphism not evolution. The entire process any way is impossibly improbable. Let's shine some skeptical light on that.jewish philosopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17987540457195983665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1069722513702689337.post-90829245899756642682010-10-28T10:35:53.111-04:002010-10-28T10:35:53.111-04:00Anon,
I hope that you are able to reconcile your ...Anon,<br /><br />I hope that you are able to reconcile your relationship with your parents in a postive way. It must be very hard. I wish you all the best. You may already know this but I am sure there are support groups with people who are gay who had or are having similar dilemas. I am sure they could give you great advice on how to handle the situation.<br /><br />Thank you so much for your advice. I will have to dwell on this for a while. I think that I may wait some more to see how things progress before I begin any sort of conversation about it with her. My wife is closer with her than I am and since we haven't lived in the same city for a while it may seem akward. Anyways thanks again for the advice, it was very helpful.Skeptitcher Rebbehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01799841763038025387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1069722513702689337.post-31858994098828366082010-10-28T02:31:58.485-04:002010-10-28T02:31:58.485-04:00I have not told my parents again this time around....I have not told my parents again this time around. Having made me as uncomfortable as they did the first time, I'm afraid what it will do now that I am coming from a place of actual acceptance of self and not simply new self discovery. On the one hand, they may now be fully accepting, but on the other, they may respond even more negatively than before. We are currently on very good terms and I hope to keep it that was as long as possible. It is a constant worry of mine, though.<br /><br />As for your friend, you are in an awkward position. Should you choose to say something to her, you could potentially destroy your friendship and/or send her into deep self denial. On the other hand, you could help enact change in her, allowing her to find self acceptance by seeing a friend who cares about her either way. Keep in mind that sexuality is not as static as some would have you believe, and while I was always attracted to men and hiding from that, there are those who do change. It is possible that her orientation has changed in her life, and you suggesting otherwise could be offensive to her. Also keep in mind that there are religious gay people and that this might be a fair community for her.<br /><br />I was never open enough to share with anyone that I had thought I was gay, and on the (originally) rare occasion that someone suggested it to me as a possibility, I went into full denial. That she is or has been open enough about her orientation in the past means there is some room for you to speak with her about it. If you feel you have a strong enough relationship that you could discuss it in a non-confrontational way, it might be positive. But no matter her response, it is your responsibility to be supportive. If her orientation has indeed changed, she needs supportive friends with whom she can speak openly. If it has not, she will eventually need someone to be there for her as she goes through the process of accepting it all over again.<br /><br />I hope that helps, and you are welcome to share my comments with her should you so choose.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1069722513702689337.post-35536836627828025972010-10-28T01:00:00.704-04:002010-10-28T01:00:00.704-04:00Anon,
Thank you for your comments, they were ver...Anon, <br /><br />Thank you for your comments, they were very moving.<br /><br />I am suprised at your parents reaction, being reform and all. Have they accepted your orientation yet? Are you on good terms?<br /><br />I currently have a friend beginning to become a BT and she had told me initially that she was gay. Now it seems she plans on just putting it all behind her and to "become" straight. I am very nervous for her, because I am afraid she will have some very tough times ahead, especially if she decides to get married and have kids early on before making sure that this is the right path for her. Do you have any advice for me in this regard? Should I mention something to her or should I let her figure it out on her own? What would you have wanted done if you had a friend like me while you were still frum?<br /><br />Thanks again.Skeptitcher Rebbehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01799841763038025387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1069722513702689337.post-56030530863960567442010-10-28T00:31:16.867-04:002010-10-28T00:31:16.867-04:00I went through much the same process falling out o...I went through much the same process falling out of Orthodoxy, except for me, the centrality of all five stages was my own sexuality. At age 16, I came out of the closet to my parents, apparently socially accepting Reform Jews. Before then, I had made a move toward more traditional Judaism in an effort to reexamine the faith I had abandoned briefly several years earlier, and was keeping an elementary form of Kashrus. After telling my parents about this new self discovery, they began throwing out reasons for why me being gay was a shanda for myself, for them, and for my newly found religiosity and observance. While none of what they had to say holds any water, at that point in my life, it was very convincing, and I decided I must be mistaken.<br /><br />I strengthened my commitment to tradition, and when I arrived at college, gravitated towards Chabad and began observing the Mitzvos quite diligently. I never accepted the young earth concept or the flood story as told, and while I believed the concept of TMS, never felt it was central to my faith (remember I was brought up Reform, and to me that was just a nice idea, but not terribly important). My denial was primarily about my own orientation, and it persisted even as the other stages ebbed and flowed through my psyche.<br /><br />I moved sporadically through the various stages, but the central denial never left. Around the end of my sophomore year, I accepted that I had homosexual desires, though believed they were merely a test and that my job was to overcome them. I believed (because I learned on several frumishe web sites) that if I were to pray and learn more, the feelings would go away. I would get angry when nothing helped and would sometimes look for more radical methods. I would bargain that if HaSham would remove from me even some of the feelings, either about specific individuals or overall, I would take on new chumras. I even took upon myself SN as an attempt at bargaining. I became very depressed at the thought that nothing was helping and that I was doomed to eventually falter and that there would be no help for me then. By the end of college, I had accepted that I would not be able to get rid of my sexual desires, and by the end of a period in Yeshiva, I had accepted that I would eventually have to let them play out, but still denied that I was gay.<br /><br />It wasn't until a year after leaving Yeshiva that I finally came to accept myself as gay, but took several more months before I accepted that I would have to share this with anyone. Once I had finally come to accept both that I was gay and that I couldn't go on hiding the fact from everyone for the rest of my life, I began an extreme and rapid move through the stages, though this time the pervasive one was depression. Finally, after the support and acceptance of numerous friends, I finally came to full acceptance of myself, and that was when everything fell through. For me, perhaps, I was grieving first my sexuality, and only later, upon accepting that, my orthodoxy. I, apparently unlike you, still believe in God, but have taken the other approach and have abandoned most religious practices.<br /><br />Thank you for the interesting post. It was a springboard for some wonderful self reflection.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1069722513702689337.post-25509513791118937112010-10-25T00:48:09.523-04:002010-10-25T00:48:09.523-04:00I guess that makes more sense now. When I thought ...I guess that makes more sense now. When I thought about this idea I felt that I skipped around between quite a lot. Now that I know they aren't meant to be in an order that makes more sense.<br /><br />I probably could rewrite it to be more accurate with this new information, but I don't really care all that much to go through all that again.Skeptitcher Rebbehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01799841763038025387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1069722513702689337.post-44958273713060443512010-10-25T00:09:12.491-04:002010-10-25T00:09:12.491-04:00This is clever.
For the record, mourning doesn’t...This is clever. <br /><br />For the record, mourning doesn’t always include all of the stages, and there’s no particular order that they’re supposed to appear in (as implied by “moving forward” or “moving backward”).G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.com